Making a (sub) bass sound good or full in your mix.

- ask away
Post Reply
koen1978
mnml newbie
mnml newbie
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:54 pm

Making a (sub) bass sound good or full in your mix.

Post by koen1978 »

Hi,

Most techno tracks i listen to all sound very full. Every sound seems to have his own place. The bass isn't sounding very hard but it gives the track enough body. The high hats and fx etc do sound much louder often but it all fits together.

My problem lies mainly in my lower sounds / sub bass, getting headaches to figure it out. I read and learned a lot about looking at your spectrum and cutting away everything that you do not need. How do you have to look at your decibels? Are there any rules/tricks regarding the volume in decibels for all sounds or bass in each individual rack (not masterchannel)? Or comparing to other sounds (kick)?
pafufta816
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:51 am
Contact:

Post by pafufta816 »

this is why people pay to have their tracks mastered, it saves one huge headache. when i'm trying to get the bass to sit nicely i usually listen through 2-3 different speaker sets. headphones, computer system and my friends stereo system. usually if there are noticable issues i will pick them up on computer, followed by a headphone listening to determine if all the sounds sit well with eachother, and then finally my friends stereo helps me determine if the track is loud enough and a final check on volumes.

each time i listen i'm using "new ears". i listen while i walk to the grocery store, to get a good perspective, to see how outside ambient noise interacts with the song. many times parts of my tracks get washed out when car noise is in the background, so i may need to adjust things so sounds come out clearly. the track should sound really nice on speakers with good bass response, but it should also still communicate well on a system lacking bass.
New Guy
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: France

Post by New Guy »

try to stay away from eqing as much as possible. Low cut the sounds which have low frequency energy that is not needed and just interferes with your kick and bass. Starting off with the right samples does save you a lot of work in the mixing process also. And the most important thing perhaps, have patience and practice, practice, practice.
koen1978
mnml newbie
mnml newbie
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:54 pm

Post by koen1978 »

I practice 3 to 4 hours a day ;) In april 2011 i will begin to study @ SAE in Amsterdam. That will be a real eye opener i guess.

What do you do before sending your track to a engineer in case of volume? The only info i can find is talking about clipping and about the masterchannel. Are there any rules comparing to volumes? Do sounds need to be between a certain minimum of decibels and maximum decibels? sorry for repeating my question. How do i have to look at the decibels in my spectrum? Are there some basic rules for any particular sounds (bass) individualy comparing to this volume matter?

Maybe i'm thinking the wrong way and the answer will be: 'as long your volume is green and your masterchannel isn't clipping you just have to listnen till your satisfied?'
steevio
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 3495
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:18 pm
Location: wales UK
Contact:

Post by steevio »

take the loudest part of your track, ( a section where most sounds are happening ) and spectrum analyse a one bar section.

when you look at the spectrum you should have roughly a uniform slope (a triangle) from the sub-bass to the highs. obviously this varies with each track, but as a rough guide this will do to start with.

bass requires more decibels ! and the lower you go, the more decibels you need.

there should be nothing or very little below 20 Hz, if you have anything substantial here (say a spike at 15Hz) then this will eat up all your headroom and your track will sound quiet and there will be no definition in the bass and low mids. if you do have anything here, it needs to be removed with a high pass filter.
if you do use a HP filter you will immedeately notice an increase in the volume of the higher bass, which now has room to breathe.

in practice it isnt a good idea to have very much happening below about 37 Hz, unless you are making a kind of music like dubstep which has very low bass notes.

so your lowest note will probably be the highest spike on the spectrum, as it will have the most energy, however if it is too much of a spike, and not in line with the slope, its too loud.

in practice i would not have a problem with there being a bit of a spike above the slope around 80 Hz, this the area where bass sounds the loudest to human ears, sub bass is more fealt as a vibration than heard.

a good practice is to listen to specific individual frequencies as sinewaves like say 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 120 Hz to train yourself to know what they sound/feel like.
i know that alot of people talk about subbass without knowing what it is, quite often they are just talking about bass.
once you are familiar with what frequencies sound like, you have a much better chance of being able to pinpoint the bad ones and remove them with filters or EQ, or boost the benificial ones which give you a bigger bottom end, and the same goes for the whole spectrum.

choosing the right notes in your bassline is also absolutely essential, there should be space between them to allow them to breath, its not a good idea to say use three notes a semitone or two apart in the lowest registers.

i hope thats some help
AK
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1973
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by AK »

I think you should be thinking about bass in general rather than 'sub bass'. Sub bass is a term used differently by a lot of people as far as i can tell. My own definition is that its bass frequencies below 100hz. Some people assume sub bass to be a sine wave for some reason so id ask what it is you are referring to here.

Bass in general is what you should be looking at and theres many threads on this here. My own preference is not to use notes below about 40/41hz, thats an E note and also the lowest note on a bass guitar. Its not set in stone but worth keeping in mind.

I guess you havent really asked about sound design so will skip that bit, but personally, im not a fan of using just a sine wave for a bass. Id much rather start in typical subtractive stylee and begin with harmonically rich source sounds and filter out whats not needed with a sharp lp filter. Again, my choice but it does work.

Its already been mentioned about hp filtering other sounds in the mix, people suggest at least 100hz but it can often be higher, use your ears here, sometimes sounds might seem fine in isolation but its the cumulative effect of sounds when summed together that can start causing issues and an unclear bottom end.

Aside from envelopes, theres also note placement, if kick and bass are going to be occupying the same midi event, there is going to be attention needed there. Some people talk about sidechaining but i dont like it myself in all but the most subtle of applications. A working kick/bass which are happening together is potentially a long subject so wont go into that as it wasnt the question but in regard to how 'loud' the bass should be, its not really something ive consciously thought about to be honest. It doesnt seem like there is a simple answer as there are other mix factors to take into account and each track will be different. Certainly, higher frequencies will appear to be louder to the ear but since that is how we percieve them its not really relevant to mention it.

Low sounds are more difficult to percieve in terms of their pitch, i think this is what steevio was getting at in reference to avoiding simple chromaticism with low notes only. Often a simple note here and there thats the root note in the next octave can give the ear the sense of pitch and definition required for those low notes, so also give thought to bass lines and include the next 1 or even 2 octaves for the odd note. Again, i guess thats personal but theres logic behind it.

As for eq etc, dont look at all that as a fix, think in terms of fine tweaking. Its perfectly possible to get solid bass with good source sounds, envelope shaping, sensible mix placement, respective volume levels and being aware of other elements in the track. Synths/samples all come with filters and most have simple hp, lp and bp filter types, so when judging bass, take into account your other sounds too. Leave room for the kick and bass to breathe and experiment with the filters on your synth parts as i just mentioned for creating other sounds that leave the low end free of bass clutter. Most of it is common sense. Of course theres no problem with using dedicated filters, i was just illustrating a point that you have a lot of tools for shaping your mix right at your source sounds. Its not always the answer to assume eq to be the remedy for issues.
steevio
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 3495
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:18 pm
Location: wales UK
Contact:

Post by steevio »

@ AK
i think we are talking from totally different perspectives here, i'm really addressing this from a mastering perspective, looking at an overall existing mix and trying to spot what could be wrong with it by spectrum analysis.

i didnt really want to get into it from a tune construction point of view, as its a complex subject, and very subjective.

edit. btw i'm not disagreeing with what youre saying.

youre totally right that everyone seems to have a different idea of what sub bass is, personally i consider frequencies between 37 Hz and 150 Hz as real Bass, and anything below 37Hz as sub-bass, the boundaries of what constitute a particular frequency range are often disputed, and there is always a grey area. i suppose on average sub bass would be considered below 80 Hz or so.

saying the low E on a bass guitar should be the lowest note is again subjective, my 5 string bass guitar's lowest note is B 31Hz.

i find it quite amusing that dance music people think they are the kings of bass, and talk about not using frequnecies below 60 Hz, when in reality the Church have been the kings of bass for hundreds of years, a church organ goes down to 16Hz, now that is real sub-bass, two octaves below the average dance producers idea of sub-bass.
the dubstep guys have got it nailed, they really use sub-bass, often using frequencies as low as 27 Hz.

its also worth remebering that the 909 kick which has been the staple of techno has a set tuned sinewave of 52 Hz (G#) underpinning it no matter where it is tuned, and this note has been pounding the ears of techno lovers for two decades, you could say its the tone of techno.
kdgh
mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:51 pm

Post by kdgh »

simple :

create harmonics....
Layer your bass sound with a triangle or a cutted sawtooth. Sometimes you need to hear the sound to think it has body!. Pure sine will only make you're pants go back and forth. Low sines won't impress the ears.

You could also try FM synthese to add some harmonics on your bassline

edit :

funny to see everybody talking in numbers of hz.... I mostly trust my ears. Not every sound needs the same processing.
Post Reply