Making a (sub) bass sound good or full in your mix.

[koen1978]

Right on, thanks steevio! Never thought of analyzing another track. I was only listnening. Im just a beginner, never thought of that one
I tried it myself and noticed the peak on 33th bar for the sub @ E0 40hz. But i couldn't tell for sure where the kick was hitting in my spectrum. How do you analyze a track? Do you have a specific way of doing this? Do you see this information immediately on your spectrum or is there a way of achieving this?

[steevio]

Right on, thanks steevio! Never thought of analyzing another track. I was only listnening. Im just a beginner, never thought of that one
I tried it myself and noticed the peak on 33th bar for the sub @ E0 40hz. But i couldn't tell for sure where the kick was hitting in my spectrum. How do you analyze a track? Do you have a specific way of doing this? Do you see this information immediately on your spectrum or is there a way of achieving this?

its kind of detective work really, theres two big bass spikes on the spectrum, one is obviously the sub at 40 Hz, so the other one has to be the kick really.
and when i see that 52 Hz spike it usually tells me its a 909. it sounds like a muffled 909 anyway.

i havent got the file anymore, but from what i remember there was very little else going on in the bass above that, so that tells me its probably a sinewave (no harmonics), albeit disguised a bit with reverb.
this is a classic techno set up, despite what has been said in this thread, sinewaves work well as sub reinforcement, because they give you a clean bottom end, but not so well on their own, if the kick wasnt there, it wouldn't sound as big.
below 30Hz they dont work as well.

its the lack of harmonics that give you this effect, this is what i consider to be subs.
if you start adding harmonics it will punch through in the mix for sure as kdgh said, but then i'm not sure you can call it subs anymore, its becoming bass.

once you've looked at a few spectrums, you will start to spot whats going on really quickly.

[Jovan]

I cut anything but bass and kick up to 200/300 hz and i use sidechain simple
as that...
Edit: Any sound has bass, Snare, hi-hat... Make room for your bass if you want it big, and for me less bass is more stupid but that what works for me

[koen1978]

What do you mean with harmonics?

I have a problem with most of my tracks and i can't figure it out. It seems like i'm doing something wrong. When making my track (in Ableton) everything sounds great (nothing clips). Then i render it as a WAV file to take a listen on my stereo speakers, and then its still oke. Maybe a bit soft but that can be pimped bt mastering right? When i upload it to soundcloud, just to check the sound, i hear the bass, kick and everything quite clear, but there's a irritating distortded wobble sound. I know that soundcloud uses compression settings, but i guess it is a sign that something isn't right in my mix. I think it has to do with my (sub) bass. If i look at my spectrum at the masterchannel of my song the bass hits like -7 decibel, my mid -24 and my high -33. When i listnen to it all sounds good??

[steevio]

What do you mean with harmonics?

I have a problem with most of my tracks and i can't figure it out. It seems like i'm doing something wrong. When making my track (in Ableton) everything sounds great (nothing clips). Then i render it as a WAV file to take a listen on my stereo speakers, and then its still oke. Maybe a bit soft but that can be pimped bt mastering right? When i upload it to soundcloud, just to check the sound, i hear the bass, kick and everything quite clear, but there's a irritating distortded wobble sound. I know that soundcloud uses compression settings, but i guess it is a sign that something isn't right in my mix. I think it has to do with my (sub) bass. If i look at my spectrum at the masterchannel of my song the bass hits like -7 decibel, my mid -24 and my high -33. When i listnen to it all sounds good??

i had the same problem with a couple of tracks i uploaded to beatport, they sounded sh!t on the shop samples, with a warbling sound coming from the sub bass which the beatport compression didnt like.
i mean nobody would buy those tracks sounding like that, but theres was nothing actually wrong with the track, it was purely the poor quality overcompressed samples.
i had to go back and use a highpass filter to take out the sub bass which admittedly was quite low (31 Hz) but man i make my music for clubs not earbuds, it really pissed me off that i should have to compromise my music like that.

bro its not so much the decibels but the frequencies you need to look at.
(well obviously its both).
its not just bass, mid and high, they are quite arbitary boundaries.

you analysed that track, and you will have seen the two bass spikes, your spikes should not be any higher than those in comparison to the rest of your spectrum, and you will have noticed the abrupt cut off below the 40 Hz spike, this is what you should be aiming for, the triangle shape i mentioned in a previous post with your sub bass the highest point, but not sticking up way above the line of the triangle shape, if it is, its too loud and will kill your mix.

look for spikes under 50 Hz, especially look for spikes under 30 Hz. ( there shouldnt really be any)

and dont use samples for your subs !!! use pure sinewaves.

if you are going to use a sinewave sub to beef up your kick like in that track you posted, make sure its in tune with the kick if the kick has a note to it. spectrum analyse your kick and bass seperately, and find out what frequencies you're using.

if they are too close together in pitch you will get a horrible warble in your bass, and you might not even notice it on your speakers if they cant handle sub bass, but the mp3 compression will not handle it too well.

try using a subbass sine at 41 Hz (E1) and tune your kick to a pefect fifth above that 62 Hz (B1) if you tune these two elements at perfect intervals it will all sound much tighter and you'll get no beating.

[koen1978]

My sub is at 40 hz and my kick was at 50. So if i understand you right: to avoid this distortion sound your kick needs to sit a fifth higher, plus a cut off on the sub under 40 hz (with a HP filter)(i tried it, and i see what you mean!)
Your mentioned 60 hz against 40 (kick vs bass). You mean a fifth 'octave' higher?

Overal you don't have to look at your decibels but rather to your spectrum that everything needs to be on the same level, no big peaks on individualy bands: right? (Just to be sure if i understand you the right way) This is very usefull info for me, can you tell me something more about that. This is exactly what i started this topic for. only thing is, if i push down the volume (for my bass and drums) to avoid big peaks the weight, body of my track is less. If my bass still peaks even when its much lower, is this oke? Thanks for your help Steevio!

[steevio]

My sub is at 40 hz and my kick was at 50. So if i understand you right: to avoid this distortion sound your kick needs to sit a fifth higher, plus a cut off on the sub under 40 hz (with a HP filter)(i tried it, and i see what you mean!)
Your mentioned 60 hz against 40 (kick vs bass). You mean a fifth 'octave' higher?

Overal you don't have to look at your decibels but rather to your spectrum that everything needs to be on the same level, no big peaks on individualy bands: right? (Just to be sure if i understand you the right way) This is very usefull info for me, can you tell me something more about that. This is exactly what i started this topic for. only thing is, if i push down the volume (for my bass and drums) to avoid big peaks the weight, body of my track is less. If my bass still peaks even when its much lower, is this oke? Thanks for your help Steevio!

thats probably where your problem lies, they are too close together, and if they are not tuned exactly you will get beating (interference)

in the example you posted the kick was tuned a major 3rd above the sub, so it worked, but i normally use greater intervals, and 5ths work best, because they are very close to harmonic intervals.
like i said this is a very complex subject. all i can say is what i would do in this situation, all the stuff the other guys have said is equally valid, but i'm trying to relate it directly to the sample you posted, then we know we are talking about the same stuff.

i always start with a root note as my lowest bass tone, or kick tone.
so if the tune is in the key of E (it doesnt have to strictly be in a key for this kind of music but its a good starting point)
then i would either have my lowest and most frequent bass note as E (41Hz) and i would tune my kick drum to exactly a 5th higher B (62Hz)
or as in your sample just a sub tone layered with the kick.

OR i would have my kick drum at 41 Hz and my lowest bass tone 62Hz it doesnt matter which way round, depends on the effect youre after, but the first method usually works better and gives the kick more punch, and provides a clearly defined root tone.

but the important thing is to give this space in the lower bass. you dont want lots of frequencies flying around in this area of the spectrum.

one of the most important things is to tune them exactly, if its a few cents out either way it will start to beat and sound rough.

the reason i didnt go into harmonics originally in this thread was because i didnt think it was relevant to what you were asking about, i guessed you were after a big sub below you kick, and thats exactly what you sent in your sample.
harmonics become very relevant if you are talking about a seperate bassline which requires higher harmonics to bring it out in your mix or there will be no attack on your bass and it will get lost in the mix, but what it looks like youre talking about is basically adding a sub-harmonic to your kick drum. this is why i would use a perfect 5th.

and the reason you use a pure sinewave for this job is exactly because it has no harmonics, you dont need them because they are being provided by your kick drum.

but harmonics are a whole topic on their own, you need to read up about the harmonic series and it will give you insights into all aspects of music production, not just the bass end of the spectrum.
i'd say its one of the most important things to understand.

if you use 12 tet chromatic intervals other than 5ths or octaves for anything layered in the lower bass part of the spectrum, they will interfere, because they are not pure harmonic tunings. this interference is much more important to avoid in the lower bass, because it sounds horrible, the same effect in the mids can actually be usable musically.

and we havent even started talking about compression.... yikes !!!

i've edited this so many times, because i just keep thinking of other important relevant points, like the tone of you kick isnt so important if it has a very short decay, or a very steep pitch envelope, we could go on for months here, but i'm going to stop now, got to get on making music.

[steevio]

Overal you don't have to look at your decibels but rather to your spectrum that everything needs to be on the same level, no big peaks on individualy bands: right?

there will always be peaks of sorts, what you dont want is really big peaks (spikes) sticking out way above the rest.
like i said go for a triangle (sawtooth shape) for your whole spectrum, but remebering that if you have a lot of high content, like ride cymbals, loud hihats, there will probably be some spikes up in the higher registers which deviate from the sawtooth shape. this is not an exact science, and totally depends on your track, and is not taking into account the fletcher-munson curve, i'm talking very approximately here.

anything that obviously jumps out at you when you look at the spectrum, is worth investigating. it doesnt means its wrong, but try experimenting with lowering that element in the mix and then listen again.