Song construction... ?

Yatmandu · Post by **Yatmandu** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:10 am

"Following rules does not make it good." It's so easy to play this game.

livecollective · Post by **livecollective** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:25 am

tettezak wrote: Being original does not automatically make it any good. Unless I'm the one missing MagpieIndustries' point..
Lots of good tracks follow those so called rules.

And even more shitty ones follow those "so called rules".

This thread is pointless, do whatever you want to do. There is no rationalizing something like this.

This Thread = Fail

MagpieIndustries · Post by **MagpieIndustries** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:56 am

If someone is on a forum and looking for some help in putting together some basic tunes, surely it's better to just give them that. Give them a couple of cliches rather than insisting they become the next Richard D James. Beginners will have a lot of fun playing with cliches. They'll figure out its all dull soon enough anyway, and start their own ideas naturally from there...

Maybe the situation would be better if we actually provided some answers for the questions, rather than trying to change peoples philosophies.

laza · Post by **laza** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:05 am

its simple, if you want to make good working clubtrack you should stick to some rules, if you want to make some stuff which isnt meant to be played from djs in the first place, its not that important.
everyone talks like there is just being sticking to rules or be original. how about beeing original in classical structures?!?! i think the hardest thing is to do something really creative within rules and not doing everything without boundaries, the ones are very few and know the basic structures pretty damn well. and if you are honest there are a lot of 'original' tracks which really arent so good, then i think maybe he should have sticked to more structure....

greets, gergoe

AK · Post by AK » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:02 am

I guess it's about familiarity in some respects. If you are working in 4/4 time, it makes sense to adhere to 16/32 bar sections or you run the risk of it not being DJ friendly but because something is based around 4/4 time, it does not have to be unoriginal simply because of expected pattern changes. It's just structure and has no bearing on the musical content, which, IMO, is where the creativity lies.

steevio · Post by **steevio** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:32 am

tettezak wrote:
steevio wrote:what do i mean by moving forward ? what a strange question.
music is constantly evolving, always has, always will.
Then what's the problem?
It's something that just happens randomly without any reason and/or goals, I don't see how one can speak of "struggling" in this context, it either happens or it doesn't..
And then when it does there's a 1000 posts on how it used to be better

steevio wrote:i dont get your point, and didnt think that was his point either, am i missing something here ?

MagpieIndustries wrote:Electronic music is being held back by this CONSTANTLY REPEATED idea that you can screw the rules, and that you should be original. Ask yourself 'Why?' for fucks sake. I don't see so many people saying you should be both good, and original. You can throw whatever sht you like together and call it original, and then get on a forum and feel secure about what you did by telling everyone that they too should be original. But this will never make you any good.
Being original does not automatically make it any good. Unless I'm the one missing MagpieIndustries' point..
Lots of good tracks follow those so called rules.

ok firstly if you read my posts again you'll see my main point wasnt about originality, it was about avoiding predictability, and i personally dont think that is bad advice for a beginner.
what i said was ' just flow with it, do what comes natural, our music is one of the few musical forms which needs no rules, its the perfect platform for free expression'

i stand by what i said.

as far as our music 'struggling to move forward' is concerned, my feelings on this matter come from my gradual disenchantment with minimal music in general as a label owner. i receive so many predictable demos, that i'm almost at the point of not accepting demos anymore.
i'm starting to feel that i should be pro-active and go out looking for good music.
i know its out there, and i'm starting to think that by 'word of mouth' and networking i'm much more likely to find interesting music.
i can only assume that this is because the good stuff is only a tiny percentage of what is being produced, with the vast majority conforming to the tired old format.
i dont think i'm an insecure forum idiot, i'm just passionate about techno.

JonasEdenbrandt · Post by **JonasEdenbrandt** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:55 pm

Just read through all three pages of this thread. First of all I don't find this thread "fail" as someone stated above, discussing the music you work with is just as important as playing around in your DAWs to get a perspective at what your actually are doing.

When it comes to song structure I belive its not that big a problem that structures normally are the same in techno tracks. I love jazz and thats most of the time 32 bar chorus structure so people can improvise over it without getting lost, i guess the same thing goes for techno it's mostly 32bar chorus so DJs don't get lost. On the other hand one could argue it's not harder for a DJ to coun't to 15 then 16 and actually listening to the track a few times at home before playing it in a club isn't asking alot.

When it comes to being original I'm not sure about my opinion on this. For example I kinda miss counterpoint in music these days and making a counterpoint techno track is not really moving forward (more like moving 400 years backwards) still I belive it would be a great track. It's a balance thing when it comes to this and all great artists know this.

And the whole thing about techno moving forward slowly I want you all to listen to a jeff mills track from Wave transmissions 1 and then listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_3KPl6FRrA then as a reference point listen to the beatles and then a oasis track or the strokes or whatever the new hip rock band is called.

To the OP try listening to Radio Slave tracks and analyze them and make covers of them he has a very basic structure and slow moving tracks wich makes this "easy" (I gave this tip before but i really belive in it)

/Epic Post

Atheory · Post by **Atheory** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:17 pm

^^^
i think there is more to learn from radioslaves sound design than from his structures though. i mean, they are fairly straight forward and repetative but it works because the sounds are excellent. i'm really enjoying the rekids revolutions release at the moment.

yeah this thread is a bit out of control, don't agree with a lot of the stuff being said. of course there is general rules in making techno sound like techno, no one was trying to say that all characteristics should go out the window, so i don't know why so many people are stuck on that point. its just that the same track over and over is boring, and anti-techno.

imo, techno is meant to be about adventure and the future (its something i tried to get across in that disaster thread a few months ago) but thats got diluted along the way for a lot of people.

this might sound a little harsh, but i think a lot of people are afraid of moving forward and evolution cause they would get left being, maybe because they don't have the guts or the talent or imagination to do anything too differently.