Logic instruments/effects in Ableton.....

[Opuswerk]

psytox, what was the last version of live you did your tests on?

good question indeed. There's been a massive audio engine rehawl on version 7. Have you tried to null the same sound source? ie play exactly the same loops through both engines and invert the phase of one while playing both together?

[PsyTox]

psytox, what was the last version of live you did your tests on?

last one, v8... I know the sound improved (again) with that new version, but still, no where near the "logic sound". And what also bugs the hell out of me is that, when you do get it sounding good in Live, often it comes out differently when you render it. So I record it with an external recorder but still, that's a bit of a downer.

anyway, don't want to sound like I'm cracking down on live... but if I could choose I would love to make everything in Live, and then rewire all channels to logic and master it there. So I would have the ease of use of the ableton interface and tools and the sound and mastering possibilities of logic.
But as I said: for some weird reason ableton decided to disable the plugins when you rewire it like that, which is a pitty

Anyway, bit of topic isn't it. If anyone has a solution, other then simply rendering track per track and reloading them in logic, then I'm all ears.

[Raddler]

I agree with psytrox. There is something about the sound in logic that I prefer over Live. Having said that, I may have become biased/brainwashed into believing that after the million threads I've read about it. I can't really explain it either, there's just a more organic/full sound in Logic. I'm not about to try and prove it so please no attacks!! It's just a personnal thing.This quote from Ricardo Villalobos sure didn't help much either, not to say I should listen to him , but he has made good music!



"Why do you think, with the infinite possibilities afforded to them, that producers don't reach outside these programs?"

"The thing is, you have the limitation of the program, the limitation of the digital mixing which is happening inside the computer, you have the limitation of the sound sources of the synthesizers—the virtual synthesizers. Even the sound engine is playing a very big role in the whole sound of the product. If you have a good turntable and good speakers, you can hear it is made in Ableton. Logic, for example, is very neutral in sound but Ableton...you can hear it in two seconds".........




Granted however, this may have been when Live's audio engine sucked! . Also, he never said Ableton sounded bad, just recognizable.

In any case, i'm like you psytrox, if Live had better sounds/effects/overall sound quality, i'd have never switched to Logic, but the sounds in logic are just phenomenal and hard to top with any third party software.

Here's that Villaboros link if anyone's interested
http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1128

[db2]

Also throwing out there that a lot of ableton techno people are using the same tools and perhaps not altering them a whole lot. A techno producer who hears thousands of techno tracks may be able to recognize in some ways how ableton techno sounds. I know a lot of hip hop producers starting to use ableton now, and I'd be damned if the same person would be able to identify which hip hop tracks are made in ableton and which are not, especially after V7. I don't get involved in these discussions much anymore, but, my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[jobbanaught]

Have you tried to null the same sound source? ie play exactly the same loops through both engines and invert the phase of one while playing both together?

There have been comprehensive tests of Live vs Logic using this exact technique. The outcome: they sound exactly the same!
As a computer scientist i might add that this is perfectly reasonable, since there is only one optimal algorithm to do summing of two signals in the digital domain, and boths DAWs use it with 64 bit internal precision. Bottom line: the whole "Live has flat sound" thing is a myth

[regler]

I have absolutely no idea why or how, all i know is that when I use f.e. my standard kit of drums in Battery it sounds more 'contained', breaths more, better stereo image, while in Live it sounds agressive and very in your face. I absolutely can't explain why.)

jobbanaught+1

because there is no difference :-)

I just did a test: battery pop kit (only the demo version since I don't have battery) on cubase 5 and on live 7. the result from the inverse phase test is silence... so no difference.

I have done a lot of test this way, it's so easy to fool yourself. I even don't believe myself when it comes to "sound quality". By the way, I had the same feeling about ableton and cubase before I did some tests ...

[tone-def]

what someone should do is make a track in logic and ableton with lets say 5 of the same 3rd party synths, 10 drum samples in battery and the same 3rd party plug-ins. everything will have identical settings, just one done in logic the other in ableton.

if it's still the same then it's something wrong with you ableton users

i really don't understand ableton's workflow. everything about it feels so wrong for writing music. i can see why it's good on stage but it would drive me nuts having to make original music in it. i mean it's easy enough getting stuck in a loop in Logic but ableton forces you into working with loops.

[Brankis]

there is one problem with these null tests. all they show is that summed audio cancels out. it is common knowledge that summing audio is basic math

i would like to see someone do an actual track with synths, efx, automation using the exact same settings on both platforms and see what happens. i doubt it will be the same result. there was a thread on ableton.com awhile back where henke was talking about how there are many more issues that affect the sound than summing and that all the apps do indeed sound a bit different.

in my opinion just throwing a bunch of audio in and rendering is pointless and doesnt prove anything.

how about get a bunch of audio and do a mixdown using vst eq's and other processing with the same settings, that would be much more significant.

its funny cause on the forums you read this stupid testing stuff meanwhile artists like villalobos, pronsato and others all have talked numerous times about ableton's sound. so you have a bunch of kids on the forum saying there's no difference and the top artists in the world that say there is an obvious sound to ableton.

who do you believe?

one other thing i'd like to add is that you won't find a single thread on the internet about Logic's "bad" sound quality and there are probably thousands about ableton over the years. i guess everyone is just hallucinating right?

i think its almost kind of ignorant to think all programs (digital) are "equal" or "the same." in any industry companies have trade secrets and do things differently than the competition, there is no standardized formula for coding a music program. summing audio on the other hand is a simple formula and has really nothing to do with the sound of an application. It's called ableton "LIVE" for a reason