Quality of kick samples

[AK]

For what it's worth:

I've made a kick in ableton live solely with live instruments and fx. I find it quite 808-ish, maybe you can start making your own kicks from this preset.
(Only for live 8.2.1)

http://www.mediafire.com/?288cfaezc59tdte

I hope it works.

Theres lots of methods for making your own kicks from scratch, so fair play to you for experimenting. Ive tried tons of methods myself when I was totally ITB, I dont think that anything but analog can reproduce that sense of presence though. Look at the 2 most used kicks ever, the 909 and the 808. Even now, with all the computing power decades later, people still desire these analog kicks.

If youve ever had an analog synth with fast enough envelopes, you'll know how meaty a kick you can get. Ok, you might not make a 909 due to the envelope stages involved but even with an inherently simple synth like the 101, you can synthesize some serious kicks with raw presence. In a controlled, dedicated unit such as the mbase, that leads to some serious kick potential. Not only do you get the power of analog but you are also in control of the pitch/frequency and envelope. The advantages of this over samples are obvious, even if you are software based, having that type of creative freedom for such a vital sound is paramount. In a genre such as techno, I have come to the conclusion that the kick samples just dont cut it. When you want to be in total control of the bottom end, having flexibility with the kick is where its at imo. Other genres get by perfect with layered and sampled kicks, I just dont think techno is one of them. When the whole tuning and balance of the track is working on a related set of frequencies with their ass exposed, you want to make sure you know whats going on down there to a tee.

[hydrogen]

has nothing to do with the mix... only with the kick itself.

Absolutely disagree. Nobody could argue there arent good kicks and bad kicks but theres now way it ends there.

has everything to do with the mix

ok you have a subby kick. You then need a light bass.
or vica versa

it you have clicky percussion you have a duller kick etc etc

A kick has nothing to do with the mix unless you start adding other elements.

you are also misquoting me... the sample magic kicks sound pretty fucking good alone and aren't mixed with anything.

[hydrogen]

What if you had taken a series of samples from the 909, say 10 from a live sequence and triggered them all in order individually? Haha.

Definitely something to consider if you are sampling anything.

[AK]

has nothing to do with the mix... only with the kick itself.

Absolutely disagree. Nobody could argue there arent good kicks and bad kicks but theres now way it ends there.

has everything to do with the mix

ok you have a subby kick. You then need a light bass.
or vica versa

it you have clicky percussion you have a duller kick etc etc

A kick has nothing to do with the mix unless you start adding other elements.

There will always be other elements, how many tracks feature just a kick. Its always to do with the mix. I could theoretically make the the 'perfect kick', but how do you arrive at a point of reference unless theres a mix to put it in?

I think you misunderstood what I meant. If youve ever made kicks, you'll know how you can potentially obsess over the finer details of it in isolation. Its one thing making a good solid raw and usable sound but its another thing (and a pointless thing) to spend too long on it without some context.

[steevio]

i get what you both mean, but its not black and white though.

i always spend time on my kick, (never to the point of obsession) because i like to expose my kick, in other words have nothing else going on on the downbeat, just the kick, in which case it needs to sound good in isolation.

[AK]

Yeah but its all arbitrary. This came about when I argued that there isnt such a thing as the perfect kick. Theres only the possibility of a kick being perfect for a particular track and that involves context.

If this didnt matter, we'd all just place the same kick which we voted as being perfect in all our tracks and leave it be. But we dont, we have to tweak it to fit.

To give an example of where I was coming from (and peopld do this) I have heard people making kicks in like soundforge or whatever, by layering or doctoring samples etc. But they have gone to the extent of even applying envelopes and eq and compression to them. These kicks are being made in batches, which in itself isnt a bad thing but why on earth fuss about with details? They are being listened to in isolation and crafted to what sounds good without context. Its one thing having a good raw punchy sound but its total timewasting trying to 'perfect' it without a point of reference as the whole process is completely arbitrary.

[steevio]

Its one thing having a good raw punchy sound but its total timewasting trying to 'perfect' it without a point of reference as the whole process is completely arbitrary.

i totally agree,
but i suppose i also prefer to construct all my sounds in isolation not just the kick, so that they have integrity in their own right, then when there are parts of the tune where they do groove along on their own, they still sound good.
but i agree 'perfecting' the sound in isolation is a bit pointless, but theres no harm in getting it sounding nice, especially in the context of minimal music, and adjusting it to fit once its in the mix.
thats how i work anyway.

[hydrogen]

AK, I like your points but i'm not talking about the perfect kick... but like steevio said once you expose the kick and it sounds 'flat' you probably want to do something about it.

I think using these sampled kicks is a great starting point which is what the OP was talking about

That said, i'm with both of you guys the kick has to be dynamic. the same sound repeated can get boring. Any tool, mBase1, machinedrum, 909 that helps you do this is great. If you can't tell its doing something check it out under a oscilloscope. This usually exposes some things about your kicks because you can see it right there and how it is changing over time.