Logic instruments/effects in Ableton.....

[Opuswerk]

You all made me want to really try out to make a full track in logic.

Very curious as to how it'll help my sound...

@Psytox: I'm happy you still enjoy the sound i do 100% made out of live built-in plugs Still you convinced me to try out logic a bit harder.

[Brankis]

You all made me want to really try out to make a full track in logic.

Very curious as to how it'll help my sound...

@Psytox: I'm happy you still enjoy the sound i do 100% made out of live built-in plugs Still you convinced me to try out logic a bit harder.

i enjoy it to, your music is very good

[jobbanaught]

you must be new to the internet

the point being that your argument is the same regurgitated BS that has plagued production forums for the last years

also, im not name dropping. i was simply making a comparison to people like you who think warping/timestretching in LIVE is some unknown anomally to all the producers out there. EVERYONE knows about the affects of warp and 99% of people using live for production have it loaded up with so many 3rd party vst's it's almost disgusting.

... mmh .... you know what? I wont waste my breathe on someone who is obviously neither willing nor able to understand what I have posted. I never claimed 95% of what you argue about, and obviously you have not understood what a null test is (it involves 3rd party plugins and still showed no difference between DAWs). But if bashing Live makes you happy, so be it. The only thing i dont like about this is that people read this and decide not to use Live, because they get wrong information. But thats the internet i guess.

[Brankis]

you must be new to the internet

the point being that your argument is the same regurgitated BS that has plagued production forums for the last years

also, im not name dropping. i was simply making a comparison to people like you who think warping/timestretching in LIVE is some unknown anomally to all the producers out there. EVERYONE knows about the affects of warp and 99% of people using live for production have it loaded up with so many 3rd party vst's it's almost disgusting.

... mmh .... you know what? I wont waste my breathe on someone who is obviously neither willing nor able to understand what I have posted. I never claimed 95% of what you argue about, and obviously you have not understood what a null test is (it involves 3rd party plugins and still showed no difference between DAWs). But if bashing Live makes you happy, so be it. The only thing i dont like about this is that people read this and decide not to use Live, because they get wrong information. But thats the internet i guess.

its the other way around, people read your post and choose ableton without knowing the full picture because of your limited understanding. then you see the "program x = program y" debate pop up all over which should have never started in the first place

prove me wrong and make a one minute track with at least 10 channels of midi/audio and post the result here. use vsts and full chains of effect processing with the same plugins at the same settings. i would do it but i dont really care cause this is not even a real debate for me. but if you want to provide something actually reliable to prove this whole thing wrong then be my guest. i will gladly admit my ears are fcked at that point

the problem here is that someone like you who joined this forum a month ago assumes that this already hasnt been discussed at length on this board. do a search before you preach about your null testing

[Opuswerk]

You all made me want to really try out to make a full track in logic.

Very curious as to how it'll help my sound...

@Psytox: I'm happy you still enjoy the sound i do 100% made out of live built-in plugs Still you convinced me to try out logic a bit harder.

i enjoy it to, your music is very good

to get back to the original post, I'm quite sure what is described can be done using cycling74's free soft: soundflower. It basically allows you to route any audio from any app to any other virtual port. So you could send each of the logic's tracks to its individual output and have them come in live, or vice versa.

Sorry for not having posted that earlier

you can grab it here: http://www.cycling74.com/downloads/soundflower

However you'd still need to find a way to sync the two softs...

[jobbanaught]

prove me wrong and make a one minute track with at least 10 channels of midi/audio and post the result here. use vsts and full chains of effect processing with the same plugins at the same settings. i would do it but i dont really care cause this is not even a real debate for me. but if you want to provide something actually reliable to prove this whole thing wrong then be my guest. i will gladly admit my ears are fcked at that point

Would love to make the experiment myself, but i cant since i dont own a Mac. And at least for me, the discussion was never about your ears...

the problem here is that someone like you who joined this forum a month ago assumes that this already hasnt been discussed at length on this board. do a search before you preach about your null testing

Ive been following this board for over 3 years now, without posting. Why do you think a larger postcount makes your opinion more valuable?

For a more grown-up discussion, try this:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=5940

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 455eaa21d0

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... ences.html

"The whole summing thing was tackled in depth at Lynn Fuston's site, comparing pretty much all DAW's and even throwing in things the the Dangerous 2-bus and a full SSL. Bottom line is, on summing alone, pretty much all the DAW's phase cancelled out pretty much all the way, with many people preferring the in-the-box versions over the SSL."

This is what I claimed. If you dont believe me, buy the CD with the test results here:

http://www.mercenary.com/3dauawdawsum.html

Look, i do not questions your ears or anything, but if someone writes his Battery drumkit sounds different in Live than in Logic (without further processing), this is plain wrong. Live has the same audio quality than every other DAW, w.r.t. to summing as many channels as you want. It has its own characteristics when it comes to more elaborate things like sample rate conversion, time-stretching, dithering etc..., but it does not sound worse than Logic. Maybe to you it does, but thats your personal opinion, which you try to sell as a fact. The only fact is, they can sound different under certain circumstances.

[regler]

folks, before we going into a classic classic "flamming"....I love to have a GOOD discussion about lives sound quality.

But I think there are some points we should think about.

1. when a lot of people say that something is true, it's not automatically true.
I just want to drop orson welles "War of the Worlds, it's not the best example, but I think you get what I mean. By the way, logics audio engine was discussed too in the past (and I think logic still can't save 32bit float files, or em I wrong?)

The fortuitous mixture of news bulletin format with the between-breaks dial spinning habits of listeners from the rival and far more popular Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy program, created widespread confusion among late tuners. Panic spread among many listeners who believed the news reports of an actual Martian invasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Welles


2. I had (or have) the same feel that abletons sound quality is not so good, but every test I've made showed me that there is no difference! If we could prove that live sound is bad, I would be totally happy, really! But we need a prove for this. I couldn't do it so far....

3. I have a computer science background myself, but signal processing is really not my key area. But some of you say(no offence) and show(!!) that they don't have a clue about signal processing. I'm sure that a lot of folks know a lot more in different areas then me and I have no problem with that! I love to be educated, I love to benefit from this.

so my demand... please don't have a problem with people who know more about science then you...try to benefit from this, try to understand...

Please understand that there some facts. It makes no sense to discuss a nulling test. Please understand that we all(!) suffer from bias, it's human.

for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

That's why we need to prove things. Feelings are great indicators, but no prove.

4. you don't need to understand or be an expert for about sound quality to be a good artist, so don't overrate ricardo. I remember a great guitar player who told me that he can hear through a closed door( the low pass filtered sound, you know how it sounds...) if it's a burned cd or the orignial cd. no kidding. that's absolute nonsense, even though he's a exceptionally gifted musician.

At the moment I think lives effects are a part of the problem or better for a sound signature it sometimes may have(I never use modulation effects for example, I hate lives phaser etc.). Another reason...the quality from the sound source is the most important part. In logic (and cubase) you have many good presets which sounds just good. In live you don't have them... you have to make then by yourself or use 3rd party stuff.


If you have ideas what we can test, I'm happy to discuss and make them if it's reasonable (I have live and cubase 5).

[hydrogen]

The only fact is, they can sound different under certain circumstances.

exactly... and these are those circumstances so carefully rounded up by Ableton.
http://downloads.ableton.com/manuals/80 ... ual_en.pdf


Those tests you are referring to about are dealing with summing audio and not any of these operations.

Rendering Audio (With Dithering), Volume Automation, Panning, Summing at Single Mix Points, Consolidating, Clip fades.

I'm not saying that what they are doing here is bad... these are just non-neutral operations that they are pointing out. Honestly, Logic or other DAWs probably do similar stuff.

From the manual(Sorry these were copied from the manual here and didn't copy 100% for whatever reason.)

Volume Automation
Automation of volume level results in a change in gain, which is necessarily a non-neutral operation. But certain implementations of automation envelopes can result in audible artifacts, particularly if the envelopes are not calculated at a fast enough rate. In Live 7, volume automation curves are updated for each audio sample, resulting in extremely low levels of distortion.

Consolidate
Consolidating clips in the Arrangement View creates new audio _les, which are non-neutral in comparison to the original audio data. Specifcally, the new _les will be normalized, with their clip volumes adjusted to play back at the same volume as heard prior to consolidation.

Normalization is a gain change, which is a non-neutral operation. Also, the new _les will be created at the sample rate and bit depth set in Live’s Preferences window, which may differ from those in the original audio _les.

Clip fades
When Create Fades on Clip Edges is enabled in the Record/Warp/Launch Preferences, a short (up to 4 ms) fade is applied to the clip start and end to avoid clicks at the clip edges. These declicking fades can also be applied to Session View clips via the Clip Fade button. Additionally, Arrangement View clips have editable fades and crossfades. Applying any of these fade options is a non-neutral operation.

Panning
Live uses constant power panning with sinusoidal gain curves. Output is 0 dB at the center position and signals panned fully left or right will be increased by +3 dB. In order to minimize this volume change, it may be helpful to narrow the overall stereo width before doing extreme panning. This can be done via the Width control in the Utility device.

And the most important of them...(Brankis... this is what i think you were experiencing last night with that multiband compressor!)

Summing at Single Mix Points
Since version 7, Live uses double precision (64-bit) summing at all points where signals are mixed, including Clip and return track inputs, the Master track and Racks. Mixing in Live is thus a neutral operation for signals mixed at any single summing point. This is tested by loading pairs of 24-bit les (white noise and xed-frequency sine waves and their phase inverted complements), adding the pairs together eight times and rendering the output as 32-bit les. All tests result in perfect phase cancellation.

Please note that, while 64-bit summing is applied to each single mix point, Live’s internal processing is still done at 32-bit. Thus, signals that are mixed across multiple summing points may still result in an extremely small amount of signal degradation. This combination of 64-bit summing within a 32-bit architecture strikes an ideal balance between audio quality and CPU/memory consumption.

Maybe to you it does, but thats your personal opinion, which you try to sell as a fact. The only fact is, they can sound different under certain circumstances.

Yup... and IMO if villilobos and several other of my favorite artists agree... i'm going to go with that crowd.