ableton limiting

::BLM:: · Post by **::BLM::** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:27 pm

^^ yeah same. The way its worded to me sounds like Ableton are not telling us something. anyhow waiting for the response still.

miro pajic · Post by **miro pajic** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:45 pm

::BLM:: wrote:Ableton are not telling us something. anyhow waiting for the response still.

You get it wrong. It has nothing to do with Ableton not telling you/us something. It's just the math of digital audio.
There is NO LIMITER in the master channel!!! 0dB is the limit and when you render a track which e.g. peaks at +4dB,
than you will have a clipped (4dB) file. It's NOT the same thing as limiting!

sinewave below 0dB:

sinewave using a limiter (around 4dB gain reduction):

sinewave peaking around 4dB above the 0dB border (clipping):

this is the difference between limiting and clipping. If there WAS a limiter in the mixbuss the sinewave
wouldn't look the way it does on pic 3 (done by clipping Live's masterbuss, just to clarify)

::BLM:: · Post by **::BLM::** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:47 pm

Why would he use the word limiter then? Does that make sense to you?

Nice graphs though. Thanks.

miro pajic · Post by **miro pajic** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:53 pm

::BLM:: wrote:Why would he use the word limiter then? Does that make sense to you?

Nice graphs though. Thanks.

because he doesn't understand it.
I made the screenshots by using live. The third picture is the same sinewave going above the 0dB...
you see what happened: it got shaved off, while pic 2 is using live's limiter, which just squeezes but doesn't shave off....not the same thing at all.

a mastering engineer that throws clipping and limiting into one bucket = shame on him

::BLM:: · Post by **::BLM::** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:00 pm

Yeah I understand. Perhaps he is just getting mixed up with words.

miro pajic · Post by **miro pajic** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:15 pm

yeah could be. is he a "hardware" guy? just wondering, since many "analog equipment mastering guys" with high end converters know better about clipping and limiting than guys like me (it's their job) and often clip their converters on purpose (if so desired) in combination with limiting.

s.k. · Post by **s.k.** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:32 pm

unfortunately, these days it comes down to "which hardware/digital application's convertors you are clipping" to get 'that' sound.

simonb · Post by **simonb** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:54 pm

miro pajic wrote: because he doesn't understand it.

Sounds about right. 0dB in 16 or 24 bit fixed point is the maximum level, you can't go any higher, if you can go higher within Ableton (or most software) it's because the software allows it internally e.g. by using 32 bit floating point.

Although it's not even a "limiter" as a limiter is a compressor therefore reduces peaks according to its parameters; this is just plain old clipping.

Sounds like you've been misinformed