Do you ever think about unlearning?

[steevio]

When I started producing, I had a quite poor musical culture, and I was not thinking too much. But today, knowing about a lot of stuff makes me think too much.

"Oh, that chord sounds way too basic channel", "oh that drum pattern sounds way too chicago house", the problem being I aways find something to compare myself to, something probably better, and I forget about the project I'm working on.

listening to that internal voice is the only way you'll produce something that is truly your own.
when i hear a blatant basic channel clone including all the effects etc. i immedeately swith off and consider the artist to be completely devoid of his own ideas.
its only when i hear something that sounds fresh that i sit up and take notice.
we have all done it though when we were starting out, but you have to get over that stage as quickly as possible and search for your own sound.

very few artists succeed in music without originality, with electronic music it is too easy to copy something almost exactly, that was never the case in the past with live instrumentalists, because no matter how much you are influenced by someone, your technique will never be identicle, and you are more likely to take influences from many sources without even realising it.

[maxeinsoul]

true, still there will allways be somthing you can be compared to, especially something that you can compare yourself to, because you know about your influences.

But the thing is, creativity without technique, technique without creativity, what's best? nothing. I remember when I was into guitar, you start playing basic blues, copying muddy waters, then you buy a bottleneck, start copying delta artists, then you buy a wah pedal and copy hendrix, it's a learning process, but having something to imitate shows you the basic technique. Then you think : "I should try to play some delta blues with an Hendrix/Waters touch" It involves your creativity and technique, and eventually you play something that is yours, mixing your influences.

I'm just making fun of stressed intellectual european techno producers (myself included) who spend a lot of time analysing every single thing, instead of just playing what you like.

I don't believe John Coltrane never copied anyone. Everyone copies someone else in a way. Talent is just not getting caught, or not knowing it.

What if King Tubby and all those studio cats from Jamaica came and said : these two guys from germany are just copying our work?
Or if Basic Channel guys had said : we're not original enough, we're gonna add some DX7 melodies ?

Sorry for being messy. I'm won't finish my track when I start to hear too much Basic Channel in it. But what I was wondering is : why not going on with this track and see where it leads, instead of worrying about every aspect of it (is it plagiarism, is it original...) Is being original the first quality of music?

Originality leads to great stuff, also a lots of mistakes when it isnt natural. And this is typically what I call the "European Techno Complex" : a serious lack of spontaneity, and sometimes a lot of masturbation.

[AK]

All interesting points, there's been absolutely nothing in this thread to convince me that there's any correlation between learning/gaining experience and a lack of, or developing a lack of creativity. For me, it's the complete and absolute opposite.

When I knew feck all, I was a knob twiddling, frustrated enthusiast who simply couldn't get a musical idea from his head to the real world. I was totally unsatisfied because the finished music was nothing like how I saw it develop or how I heard it beforehand. The reasons were simple, I just didn't have enough technical know-how for turning my ideas into reality. If I wanted a synth sound that did something weird, I wouldn't have a clue how to get there. Had no idea what anything on a synth did. I had played a few keyboards before that time and was fairly fluent musically but these were home style piano/organ type things with no synthesis options.

The other stuff about originality is not something I ever think about. I don't actually listen to a great deal of Techno oddly enough, I can't name many artists and don't follow musical trends. In that respect, I have no outside influence from the genre I am interested in producing in. Sure I listen to some stuff but to be honest, half the stuff I just have to turn off after a few bars if it sounds like the last thing I turned off after a few bars etc etc.

I listen to a fair bit of electronica though, the vast majority of it would be classed as Electro, electronica with Jazz influence, rock music, drum n bass, some hip hop. Over the last 12 months I have probably listened to more Bossanova than techno. I don't know why cos I really like techno, I just find it hard to actually find stuff that I like.

Ive copied people too, well, perhaps studied is a more apt description. I mean some of the chords and phrases Herbie Hancocks Headhunters featured, still fascinate me. The random - techno - like quality of some of Delia Derbyshires work from decades ago inspires me, some of the harmonies created within Beach Boys tracks, some of the grooves in reggae. Tons and tons of stuff becomes an influence, you store it subconsciously and it reveals itself when you least expect it. If you are only listening to techno, you are only drawing influence from techno and you are going to struggle to try to find a place to fit in without thinking you are sounding like somebody else.

I obviously listen to tons more stuff than that but my point is, when you come to make music, you are just going where you want to go musically, being inspired by a number of things and not feeling like you are running risk of sounding like your music is faddish or time limited or identical to the other tracks of the week. Those thoughts aren't even there with me, I went past the barrier of wanting to make music to impress others a long time ago. If you can't make music that is true to you, what's the point?

[steevio]

But the thing is, creativity without technique, technique without creativity, what's best? nothing. I remember when I was into guitar, you start playing basic blues, copying muddy waters, then you buy a bottleneck, start copying delta artists, then you buy a wah pedal and copy hendrix, it's a learning process, but having something to imitate shows you the basic technique. Then you think : "I should try to play some delta blues with an Hendrix/Waters touch" It involves your creativity and technique, and eventually you play something that is yours, mixing your influences.
.

haha yes i went through this exact process when i played guitar, when i listen to my early albums they were very heavily blues /Hendrix influenced,
but by the time i stopped playing my guitar had flavours of punk / grunge / acid rock / spacerock / jazz / blues etc etc..so that my influences all melted into one sound.

like i said, we all do it. its not wrong, but the sooner you shake that off the better. the best musicians realise this from a very early age, whereas it took me years to realise it, i dont think i had that natural ability.

with electronic music i listen to absolutely nothing. i'm aware of what i'm hearing in clubs and absorb things subconsciously, but ive never once tried to make a sound ive heard. experimentation is the only way for me now.

[Dusk]

When I knew feck all, I was a knob twiddling, frustrated enthusiast who simply couldn't get a musical idea from his head to the real world. I was totally unsatisfied because the finished music was nothing like how I saw it develop or how I heard it beforehand. The reasons were simple, I just didn't have enough technical know-how for turning my ideas into reality.

I think its great that you are able to use knowlede in the pursuit of ideas in your head; perhaps this is what separates you from me and others who haven't experienced the same.

I'm probably more of a technician rather than a creator, and that's true of many people making electronic music these days. In our heads, learnt techniques are assembled into a grid-like schema of options. When creating a track we live in "the grid", both literally and figuratively, running down and along it's various discrete sections looking for creative inspiration - when that's the last place to go looking for it.

However, before I learnt all these things, I was maybe just as likely to come up with something as creative as you or anyone else. At least that's the potential scope I hear when I listen to my old material, and all by not having this technical grid shaping my creative choices.

Shed said in a recent interview that he doesn't bother to make music without an idea in his head first: I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but have absolutely no way to relate to it, because all my ideas are framed and contextualised by technical aspects.

I think this topic, in general, gets to the heart of the whole debate (and many of the problems) with modern electronic music: what exactly distinguishes the mere technician from the genuine electronic musician, and the technically proficient producer from the exceptional and visionary one.

[steevio]

I think this topic, in general, gets to the heart of the whole debate (and many of the problems) with modern electronic music: what exactly distinguishes the mere technician from the genuine electronic musician, and the technically proficient producer from the exceptional and visionary one.

i dont think there are any clearly defined boundaries.

i think you have to be a bit of everything and you can only ever be judged by your tunes.

some artists can make visionary tunes occassionally and at other times be very ordinary, some famous artists are even defined by a single tune which just hit the spot.

consistency is rare in EDM especially over time, i suppose its the same for many types of music.

a mark of an exceptional producer to me is the timelessness of his output, even if that was just one or two tunes from a brief burst of inspiration.

[oblioblioblio]

I think this topic, in general, gets to the heart of the whole debate (and many of the problems) with modern electronic music: what exactly distinguishes the mere technician from the genuine electronic musician, and the technically proficient producer from the exceptional and visionary one.

i just try to do my own thing. It's total mammalian claptrap... but do your own thing, be true to yourself and that's all that anyone can ask of you as a musician. If you're asking questions and starting fledgling ideas from scratch you're in the right direction more than most.

Of course, personally, I'd love to make waves like Basic Channel, or My Bloody Valentine or whatever... but that's dangerous bizniss... both those artists got crippled by the weight of their own music. Too much copycats, too much pressure to make something equally magical and groundbreaking.

[AK]

Thats an interesting point made by Dusk, its not something Ive ever thought about to be honest. Maybe the edges between those things are blurry? Maybe theres a feeling with some that the technicalities actually get in the way of flowing creativity? I really dont know.

Without reading any of this, I would have just assumed what was applicable to me, would be applicable to others. Clearly thats not the case.

Do people want to make music for any particular goal? I know I couldnt give a monkeys about whether anything is released or not, and I have no drive to make any financial gain. Obviously if that was there it would be a bonus but its not my agenda or driving force. I am into making music because, quite frankly, I have to. I'd say, ever since I could remember, I'd have to have a creative pursuit. Started with art, then went through breakdancing/grafitti art and thats when I first dabbled in music. I found it way more satisfying than painting and it opened up a new world of creative freedom and exitement. That feeling is still there, Im as much excited by music now as day 1.

I didnt have the best of childhoods and I think I associate creativity with escapism and to gain a feeling of self worth and achievement, I can say with absolute certainty that if I felt I was no longer feeling creative with music, I'd be off doing something else to satisfy that part of me. Fortunately, it hasnt happened. I love music, its become an integral part of me now. This period of rebuilding a set up has left me without the ability to make stuff and its not easy or funny. Its like Ive lost somebody and im grieving. Sounds like a nut job thing but im serious.