Inverted Phase Stereo Effects

Phurniture · Post by **Phurniture** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:44 pm

I understand that inverting the phase of one side of a stereo channel would cause a sound to disappear when in mono. I have an analog stereo chorus effect unit that basically inverts the chorus effect on one channel when the stereo outputs are used. Sounds great in stereo, but the effect disappears in mono...but the base sound remains, just minus the chorus effect. (It appears that the original dry sound is not phase inverted at all.)

My question is this: knowing that certain aspects of a mix could disappear when an inverted phase stereo effect is put into mono, are there any other reasons not to use this technique? For example, if a track were to eventually go to vinyl, would is be impossible or difficult to cut?

Hopefully this question makes sense...

thom · Post by **thom** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:22 pm

I was listening to Peter Gabriel's UP lately. He did slam in effects that almost totally disappear when you hit the mono switch. Listen to a high quality version of the song "Growing Up".

Very subtle watery sound effects that don't contribute much to the overall arrangement. I found it quite clever to deliberately force this stuff to phase out when the music plays on really cheap mono systems.

So...

Well Peter Gabriel does it, so you can too.

Torque · Post by **Torque** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:15 am

Sounds like a bad idea, and here's why:

When you make music that is about to be played in a club from one general direction what happens is that the farther away the listener is from the stereo sound source the more the stereo effect disappears. So basically you're creating an effect in your music that can only be heard by people up close enough to hear the stereo effect. For everybody in the back it's not there.

Stomper · Post by **Stomper** » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm

The sound will only disappear if you keep the inverted and original signals at the same position.
moving one of them by a few ms will solve this issue. you just need to find the right spot.
just a bit of phase cancellation can be a good thing to get wider stereo image, you just need to find the right spot for both inverted and original signals.

Chorus wont always sound good in mono, so sometimes you might wanna choose to invert one side so the effect disappears when it sums to mono.

Phurniture · Post by **Phurniture** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:34 am

Both fair points...and it's why I've been in the habit of mixing tracks in mono before performing any stereo-izing of the mix.

I guess what I've often wondered is this - people always seem to post questions about how to make their tracks as widely stereo separated as the tracks they listen to (which are often club-tracks) and the conversation turns to Mid-Side processing and the like, but as the club experience is often either mono or (as Torque mentions) not ideal for hearing the full stereo mix in all it's glory I have to ask...does it really matter to even have any stereo elements if it's destined mainly for play in clubs?

Torque · Post by **Torque** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:00 am

Phurniture wrote:.does it really matter to even have any stereo elements if it's destined mainly for play in clubs?

As far as panning and whatnot i would still do it because not every club is a huge cavernous space. Some of them are small enough and with good enough systems where it still makes sense. Just don't get too wrapped up in crazy super wide stereo effect stuff because that stuff wont matter much in the club and may actually end up making that element quieter.

miro pajic · Post by **miro pajic** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:19 pm

it can work well. checking the mix in mono will tell you if it's ok or not. that simple.

Stomper · Post by **Stomper** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:16 pm

Phurniture wrote:people always seem to post questions about how to make their tracks as widely stereo separated as the tracks they listen to (which are often club-tracks)....

and where are they listening to it?
at home, in the car ect.
thats also true to the DJ that listen to it before playing it in the club.

panning is important because two instruments that share similar main frequencies cant play at the same spot on stage.
but i do believe that using inverted phase or stereo imaging on little things can give good results.
instead of two hi hats tracks panned hard left and hard right, you can use this technique when both tracks are centered.
you can use it on the reverb of the snare/clap.
but its not something i would use on leads or bass.