good post there by steevio, although i dont think a snare/clap on the 2 and 4 is cliched myself as it can be seen as a staple of the 4/4 drum sequence.
I totally agree that its a good idea to try polyrhythmic stuff. Try combining patterns of different step amounts.
One thing i havent seen mentioned is playing stuff in by hand and to avoid noticing the grid and quantize.
Also, as we all know, samples can seem static and lifeless with no nuance difference with changes in velocity. One way to add a little 'something', is to resample a few of your percussive hits and snares with a lp filter and a less agressive transient. A few gradual changes per resample go a long way to adding realism to sample based kits. You can create patches based on velocity, where each variant of the sample has its own layer and is triggered by the velocity layer/zone its in.
movement/accents on percussion
i think thats the problem, no-one can see it.AK wrote:good post there by steevio, although i dont think a snare/clap on the 2 and 4 is cliched myself as it can be seen as a staple of the 4/4 drum sequence.
you know ive only ever used a 2/4 snare/clap on one tune in 17 years of producing EDM, and that was the first tune i released.
for me it instantly makes the groove rigid, it takes over the groove stamping its authority all over it, so theres no room for anything else to breath.
its not really a staple of 4/4. its a staple of 2/4.
take it away and your 4/4 has so much room to expand into.
i feel very strongly about this.
a staple is another way of saying a cliche'
its so entrenched its become invisible.
can you imagine a good jazz drummer only hitting his snare on the 2/4 ?
techno is tribal music for me, 2/4 is only one rhythm amongst so many possibilities, why allow it to be so dominant ?
i knew you'd reply to that bro and i agree with you all the way and from a musicians perspective.
The issue is, the public are predisposed to western rhythm, which involves an unconscious expectancy of a snare/clap on the 2 and 4 in standard time. For me, it addresses the border between danceability and experimentalism and whether or not adhere to that. Experimentation with rhythm is an area i am aware of but also scared that people wont 'get' it.
I have heard what you do and you do it musically with danceability too. I dont think you realise this is a rhythmic skill that a lot of guys just cant 'feel'.
I like the snare/clap on the 2/4 myself as it reinforces the 4/4 rhythm and that rhythm is so punched into our head in the western world that we almost require it.
Its for that reason that a lot of 4/4 kick routines can feel incomplete or never get going without the accent on the 2/4. Like they are 'lazy' or 'chilled'.
I dunno bro, im in love with what you produce but where is the cut off point between artistic evolution and listener alieanation?
The issue is, the public are predisposed to western rhythm, which involves an unconscious expectancy of a snare/clap on the 2 and 4 in standard time. For me, it addresses the border between danceability and experimentalism and whether or not adhere to that. Experimentation with rhythm is an area i am aware of but also scared that people wont 'get' it.
I have heard what you do and you do it musically with danceability too. I dont think you realise this is a rhythmic skill that a lot of guys just cant 'feel'.
I like the snare/clap on the 2/4 myself as it reinforces the 4/4 rhythm and that rhythm is so punched into our head in the western world that we almost require it.
Its for that reason that a lot of 4/4 kick routines can feel incomplete or never get going without the accent on the 2/4. Like they are 'lazy' or 'chilled'.
I dunno bro, im in love with what you produce but where is the cut off point between artistic evolution and listener alieanation?
You always troll this board. I find you quite funny to be honest.Casanova808 wrote:I am not trolling. I am genuinely trying to help him.
The best piece of advice that I can give you is to not listen to any of these clowns when it comes to drums. Listen to old 70's jazz and funk records. The last thing you want to do is sound like a bunch of washed up mnml euro-weenies.
youre quite right that if you over-experiment you're going to lose people in a dancefloor environment, but somehow i just dont think taking a cliche' out is going to do that. ive never really noticed the dancefloor clear when i play.AK wrote: I dunno bro, im in love with what you produce but where is the cut off point between artistic evolution and listener alieanation?
the way i see it, the 2/4 snare is very much a rock music thing, carried forward into disco and then house, and western music isnt synonymous with rock music, and neither is techno synonymous with house.
the 2/4 aspect of techno is expressed in many ways and in a more tribal fashion, good techno doesnt always have the 2/4 snare /clap.
there are many influences on EDM, afro/latin american music etc. which doesnt rely on the cliche' and is mostly polyrhythmic.
are we saying that you cant dance to cuban/ latin american music ?
tbh i'd rather dance to latin music than some of the ploddy 2/4 heavy house music i hear these days.
and what about other forms of EDM ? where the 2/4 snare is non-existant.
where is this conscious expectance then ?
this conscious expectance is not one of 2/4, its one of style i reckon, dubstep guys are not expecting it.
without this 2/4, many house fans might feel something was missing,
but techno ?
no way, techno doesnt have those rules, and doesnt need them.
Last edited by steevio on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8QXSv9GuKMAK wrote:
The issue is, the public are predisposed to western rhythm, which involves an unconscious expectancy of a snare/clap on the 2 and 4 in standard time.
It took me like a month of listening to this track to really hear that the clap was on all four beats. All because of this unconscious expectancy that you talked about.
steevio, all very good points and im not arguing against them, i too dont see techno being related to house. My music history isnt great but i was under the impression techno was born out of the 'electro' era, ie: juan atkins, derrek may et al. Who were themselves inspired by kraftwerk and funk music of the era. House i thought came from disco and early gay type music.
Anyway, my point is that i totally agree that techno doesnt need the 2/4 accenting with a snare i myself dont mind it personally but you could also argue that it doesnt require a 4 ttf kick pattern either but then how far can you go before techno loses its identity and becomes experimental electronica?
Now we both know that a kick pattern is not the defining factor for techno but do people who are out to dance to it?
Its not as simple as removing the snare off the 2/4 if the music has its groove centred around 4/4. It can work for you because from what i have heard, you dont really use standard time and a snare on every 2nd and 4th kick would probably sound just wrong because the music itself does not require those beats to be accented.
This is more to do with time sigs than it being anything else, lets face it, most people write techno in standard time and have a snare/clap on the 2/4. Its not they are creatively numb, its because its so good to dance to. Im all for experimenting but your point is not simply removing a snare off the 2/4, it potentially carries a lot of depth with it.
Anyway, my point is that i totally agree that techno doesnt need the 2/4 accenting with a snare i myself dont mind it personally but you could also argue that it doesnt require a 4 ttf kick pattern either but then how far can you go before techno loses its identity and becomes experimental electronica?
Now we both know that a kick pattern is not the defining factor for techno but do people who are out to dance to it?
Its not as simple as removing the snare off the 2/4 if the music has its groove centred around 4/4. It can work for you because from what i have heard, you dont really use standard time and a snare on every 2nd and 4th kick would probably sound just wrong because the music itself does not require those beats to be accented.
This is more to do with time sigs than it being anything else, lets face it, most people write techno in standard time and have a snare/clap on the 2/4. Its not they are creatively numb, its because its so good to dance to. Im all for experimenting but your point is not simply removing a snare off the 2/4, it potentially carries a lot of depth with it.
sorry have to type in two parts as my mobile starts behaving strangely after so many characters.
Anyway its just that i cant see a 2/4 snare can be considered a cliche but i do see where you are coming from and it locking you into a restrictive rhythm. There are of course still many ways of writing drum patterns that do not sound cliched regardless of the snare on the 2/4. There are lots of tracks out there that just sound too similar using the same sounds and grooves. Thats unfortunate because techno is potentially one of the most experimental genres there is. I think a lot of the beatport fraternity have lost sight of that and put more effort into making it commercially viable.
Anyway its just that i cant see a 2/4 snare can be considered a cliche but i do see where you are coming from and it locking you into a restrictive rhythm. There are of course still many ways of writing drum patterns that do not sound cliched regardless of the snare on the 2/4. There are lots of tracks out there that just sound too similar using the same sounds and grooves. Thats unfortunate because techno is potentially one of the most experimental genres there is. I think a lot of the beatport fraternity have lost sight of that and put more effort into making it commercially viable.