who are your influences?

[steevio]

The only issue I have with that is the amplitude of the partials in the waveform. Say we have an A/440 sawtooth, the fundamental being obviously 440hz, the next partial is 880hz which is an 8ve higher and half the amplitude, then we get 1320hz almost an E6 note. Then we get to another A note and next is nearly a C#, by this time we wouldnt hear the 'notes' because of the amplitude halving, and even if we could hear the 5th harmonic, we are only talking a near major chord which obviously isnt very exciting. I worked out that if we go down to the 10th harmonic, we end up near to this bunch of notes: (omitting the repeat 8ve's) A, E, C#, F#, B.

So even after only 10 partials, theres obviously 'chords' although we dont hear them as that because of the amplitude and they dont fall on chromatic notes, some being more off than others.

youre neglecting to take into account the resonance of filters, and band passing, notching etc. which can emphasise and virtually totally remove certain frequencies, including the fundamental etc.
you're not taking into account the effect of PWM, etc.... the frequnecies you hear in a skinny pulse are very different to a square wave....

synthesizers are capable of doing a lot more than just produce the perfect sawtoothwave bro.

youre also not taking into account that although the amplitude decreases, you still hear the higher partials, as it requires less amplitude to hear higher frequencies, those higher frequencies are clearly audible in an unfiltered saw or pulse.
the first 14 partials produce anything but a normal 12 tet chord, several of them are almost half a semitone out, yet it is still a chord. the further away you get from the fundamental the more 'out there' it gets.

i dont want to keep picking holes in your argument, all i can say is try it for yourself. those non 12 tet chords are totally possible and musical, using subtractive synthesis. its a technique ive been using for years.

What might be interesting is to balance a bunch of frequencies from the harmonic series with a view to composing with them. Ie: a mix of pure sine waves. It wouldnt be 12tet so may sound seriously awful. But by fluctuating the amplitude of the partials, you should, in theory be able to create waveforms and a tune of sorts. I guess im describing additive synthesis to some degree.

totally,
i made some music by fluctuating the amplitude of partials, which is exactly what you described, i released an album called Beyondness a few years ago using this technique, and while it may not have sounded 'normal' i dont think it sounded 'seriously awful', but i'm not the best judge of that.

[AK]

Its all interesting stuff, yeah wasnt thinking about filtering techniques I must admit. I guess this sort of thing is where a quality analog oscillator shines with theoretically infinite harmonics. If you are usin a VA with sampled waveforms for its oscillators, it makes sense that theres a limit of harmonics based on the sampling frequency of the waveforms.

I cant really say much to be fair as I havent tried what we're on about. Practical application needed lol.

In an earlier post, you mentioned sounding 'traditional'. I know exactly what you mean there and its been something ive wanted to escape from. I dont know if 12tet is to blame or simply working in 4/4 all the time but that has been an issue for me to some degree.

Ive tried breaking out of traditional diatonic scale/chord theory but have yet to experiment with frequencies only. Ive dabbled in creating my own pentatonic scales (which probably exist somewhere anyway) and that gives rise to some pretty 'out there' chords. Omitting things like minor and major thirds as I find those intervals almost force you into thinking diatonically. And I quite like starting with a simple bass pattern of roots and fifths, this avoids the major or minor sound and throws up a huge amount of harmonic possibilities when it comes to trying out chord patterns or something melodic because its so neutral in flavour. I guess I feel less 'locked in' to anything diatonic because its so easy to harmonise roots and fifths with pretty much anything. Not exactly exciting basslines though with just roots and fifths but they can be supported with additional notes depending on whats going on musically at any given time. I just find it a good starting point without confinement.

But yeah, the whole traditional approach isnt as easy to break out of as it sounds. I dont have an answer for myself, thought i might find something inspiring outside of 12tet but maybe getting into frequencies is where its at like you say. Experimentations the key.

[steevio]

I dont know if 12tet is to blame or simply working in 4/4 all the time but that has been an issue for me to some degree.

its both bro.

And I quite like starting with a simple bass pattern of roots and fifths, this avoids the major or minor sound and throws up a huge amount of harmonic possibilities when it comes to trying out chord patterns or something melodic because its so neutral in flavour. I guess I feel less 'locked in' to anything diatonic because its so easy to harmonise roots and fifths with pretty much anything. Not exactly exciting basslines though with just roots and fifths but they can be supported with additional notes depending on whats going on musically at any given time. I just find it a good starting point without confinement.

thats exactly where i start with bass, for exactly the same reasons, but you dont have to stick rigidly to it, just use it as a starting point.

[::BLM::]

getting late into this one...

A root note isnt that any note though? i dont understand how you stick to the root notes when doing a bass, because i always thought any note can be a root as its the fundimental of a chord right?

[AK]

getting late into this one...

A root note isnt that any note though? i dont understand how you stick to the root notes when doing a bass, because i always thought any note can be a root?

A root to a perfect 5th is an interval ( 7 semitones - perfect 5th ) it's obviously the same whatever the root note is.

And no, I don't stick with it at all, it's just a useful foundation for a while to jump through harmonic ideas over the top of it when you have a rhythmic pattern of roots and fifths because of the vast amount of key signatures ( or not ) that contain roots and fifths. In essence, you could go completely modal and come up with lots of ideas without locking yourself into diatonic thinking. It allows you to evolve musically without implying major or minor 3rds.

For me a lot of the flavour of diatonic scales arise from the stressing of intervals, esp. major or minor 3rds. Locking yourself into that set of intervals automatically becomes a constraint when trying to come up with ideas that arent necessarily diatonic. It's just where I'm at right now and trying to distance myself from scale related thinking.

But no, I certainly don't leave my bass at roots and fifths at all. But neither do I sit there programming a bass pattern full of 3rds or leading tones etc because that immediately becomes musically constrictive. I might use those intervals 'at some point' depending on what's going on at any particular time, just don't need to be locked into that immediately.

But take a root and a fifth. ( say C, a G and maybe another C or G from a different octave ) Create an interesting bass pattern, maybe some variation on the filter and note lengths etc to give it groove and because of the vast amount of 'scales' those two notes fit in, you have a vast amount of modal mixture possibilities to start experimenting with when it comes to frequencies and harmonising.

If we were using multiples of C/G, you already have the 7 modes you can experiment with over the top at any given point. You also have Harmonic minor, ascending and descending melodic minor, a huge amount of pentatonics, blues scales, octatonics, more 'exotic scales', diminished half and a few of the modes of the melodic minor scale. Could go on but if you mixed and matched say chords from wherever, you are still pretty much 'safe' in terms of harmonisation from this grounding and you can develop musically interesting patterns without adhering to diatonic harmony. It's just an open pallette of possibilities that's all. Nothing difficult to comprehend.

The only reason I mentioned it is because of trying to break out of the 'traditional' music approach. A lot of people like to lay down kick and bass patterns as the first option but when you get busy patterns that involve a few notes ( esp major or minor 3rds ) you immediately lend yourself into going major or minor in flavour. This maybe what you want, but I don't. You can get instantly locked into a restricted set of harmonic possibilities even before you have explored ideas.

At least that's my view on it.

[::BLM::]

I have never really thought about it like you guys have to be quite honest. I make music, but I don't undestand the theory behind the notes and so on. I dont really know about chords, I just play what sounds right on the midi keyboard. I kind of like it that way because then I'm not thinking too much about what I am playing and if it is in key. I like the sound of the way you make music though its interesting. I'm sure i'll get there in the end

[steevio]

@ AK
i totally agree with you mate.

i never tune any of my VCOs to major or minor thirds, i have my own system of tuning on my modular based on voltages not exact musical intervals which is too complicated to explain here, but the first thing i avoided when working it all out were those intervals.
they dont work from a mathematical perspective when adding and subtracting voltages.

[steevio]

I have never really thought about it like you guys have to be quite honest. I make music, but I don't undestand the theory behind the notes and so on. I dont really know about chords, I just play what sounds right on the midi keyboard. I kind of like it that way because then I'm not thinking too much about what I am playing and if it is in key. I like the sound of the way you make music though its interesting. I'm sure i'll get there in the end

i managed to get by for years playing various instruments in bands without knowing a thing about music theory, then i got really interested and taught myself, but tbh it can get in the way for our type of music, i'm kind of unlearning it all now, and coming at it from a scientific angle,

all these ways are totally legitimate, i suppose i just want to keep learning stuff.